Prof. Dr. Monti - Data spaces in the energy industry

00:00:00: Expanding Utilities, the IT and OT podcast for the energy

00:00:06: economy from Everdon.

00:00:08: Yeah, welcome to our podcast, Expanding Utilities.

00:00:12: And my name is Thomas Walther.

00:00:14: I'm your host here on the fair and get the interview or the talk.

00:00:17: And I'm very happy to welcome Mr.

00:00:20: Professor Dr.

00:00:21: Monty from Erwin T.

00:00:22: Hachen and Professor Dr.

00:00:24: Laskowski from Uni Dortmund and also from Everdon.

00:00:27: Yeah, perhaps our subject today or episode today will be about data rooms in utilities.

00:00:32: And we will have your representative of two perspectives.

00:00:35: The first perspective will be in German perspective and Mr.

00:00:40: Montier here also to represent the European perspective.

00:00:45: And we will see how this works together.

00:00:47: And of course, I would like also to focus on why are these data rooms are

00:00:51: important for utilities in the next step or for the future.

00:00:54: But first of all, Mr.

00:00:56: perhaps you can give a short introduction and tell who you are.

00:00:59: Thank you.

00:01:00: So I'm professor in the university.

00:01:03: WTH, Erwin T.

00:01:04: Hachen also joined upon planning for an offer fit where we are building

00:01:08: together with the university, the Center for Digital Energy,

00:01:12: responsible over a research group of about 50 people.

00:01:15: Yeah, digitalization is the core of our research activity.

00:01:18: And as far as I know, you have a quite history already in utility.

00:01:23: So you're doing that for a couple of years already.

00:01:25: Yeah.

00:01:26: Yeah.

00:01:26: Well, my institute has been cooperating with Ian particular for now more than 15 years.

00:01:32: So we have a large experience in cooperation with utilities,

00:01:35: particularly German utilities, not only because I have a lot of European projects

00:01:39: or work with cooperation with many utilities across Europe.

00:01:42: Very good.

00:01:43: And today you're also representing the project Omega X, but we will come to this

00:01:46: a little bit later.

00:01:48: Professor Dr.

00:01:48: Laskowski, perhaps I may ask you to give a short introduction.

00:01:51: Yes.

00:01:51: Yes.

00:01:51: Thank you very much for this invitation.

00:01:53: Yes.

00:01:53: My name is Michiel Laskowski.

00:01:55: And yes, I'm working for Eviden since two years.

00:01:58: And I have just a long history at RWE in Germany.

00:02:02: I've worked for RWE and Aeon as well.

00:02:04: And in that case, I was responsible for R&D research in the case of smart grids.

00:02:11: So that's my profession.

00:02:12: And that's the case.

00:02:13: I'm working in this innovation area for a couple of years.

00:02:18: So that means smart grids are my favorite.

00:02:21: And at Eviden, I'm looking for new technologies, new projects, which are

00:02:27: sponsored, for example, in the German case from the German government and so on.

00:02:31: That's my case.

00:02:32: Great.

00:02:33: Thanks.

00:02:33: Thank you very much.

00:02:34: So let's step directly into the topic.

00:02:37: I mean, we all would agree that the whole utility market is changing in a very

00:02:41: huge, impressive way currently.

00:02:43: And one part of it is creating data runs.

00:02:46: But let's perhaps start, Mr.

00:02:48: Monti, so perhaps you can give a short overview of the challenge or the requests

00:02:53: we have and why are we creating data rooms and what are data rooms for utilities?

00:02:58: Perhaps you have the chance to give a short introduction.

00:03:00: I know that the spectrum is very, very large.

00:03:02: But nevertheless, let's start.

00:03:03: What are data rooms for utilities for?

00:03:06: Well, the data space, the data rooms are a way to enable a better use of data to

00:03:12: create new business models.

00:03:14: And I think in this context, right now, there are at least two dimensions where

00:03:18: it makes sense for utilities.

00:03:19: First of all, because that's an easier way to engage customers in the system.

00:03:24: And that's a very important challenge for the future energy systems.

00:03:28: The second is because energy sector is becoming more multivertical.

00:03:33: So we are not talking electricity alone.

00:03:35: We are talking electricity in other energy carriers, but also going beyond energy

00:03:40: and creating business cases.

00:03:41: They are beyond the classical energy vertical.

00:03:45: And that's where data space opened the possibility of data exchange

00:03:49: ago beyond a single sector.

00:03:51: And that's critical thinking about use case like immobility, for example.

00:03:55: You will come to the use case a little bit later.

00:03:57: From the German perspective, Dr.

00:03:59: Askovsky, what is this perspective of data rooms in utility?

00:04:02: Yes, you know, in Germany, we have this energy vendor.

00:04:04: And that means we try to work with renewable energies like wind turbines and solar panels

00:04:10: and so on. And for the coming future, we will get more and more smaller energy

00:04:16: generators, smaller energy consumers and so on.

00:04:19: And that means we get more and more data from all these assets, you know,

00:04:23: and that's the case why we need a data spaces to arrange to organize all these

00:04:28: situations in order to realize our energy vendor in Germany.

00:04:31: And that's the reason why we need these data spaces.

00:04:35: OK, as far as I understood, you are constructing data spaces, centralized

00:04:39: data spaces where data from assets and from everywhere from utilities are

00:04:44: collected and then reused for information of a process of a use case,

00:04:48: which we will talk about. Is that the right understanding?

00:04:50: Well, maybe the only point is this centralized.

00:04:54: I'm not sure how much that space will be in the future centralized.

00:04:57: I think maybe the dot the market data could be a little bit more centralized.

00:05:02: But the idea of that space also that from the point of view of availability

00:05:06: of data, data may be quite decentralized.

00:05:09: So the central versus the central, it's a very interesting point.

00:05:13: But I think that the space enable the possibility to have data stored

00:05:16: in a very different ways and not bring into a classical concept

00:05:21: of central platform ideas.

00:05:23: And that's very relevant, particularly when you think about customers

00:05:26: and then data sovereignty from the point of view of the customers.

00:05:29: And that's where that space can really make a difference

00:05:31: with respect to classical platform economy.

00:05:34: So that means there will be no one not only one owner for the data spaces

00:05:38: or for the data that will be a couple of owner who is poor, providing the data.

00:05:41: Is that right? OK, right.

00:05:42: So in the preparation of this episode, we already talked about two projects

00:05:46: which are focused on creating data spaces for utilities.

00:05:49: So the one project is energy data X, which is German project.

00:05:53: And we have got Omega X. Perhaps you can describe.

00:05:56: We start with a European perspective.

00:05:59: Perhaps you can summarize the topics and also the project steps of Omega X.

00:06:03: Omega X is one of the projects in the cluster for

00:06:06: sponsored by the European Commission to create the first experiment

00:06:10: in the direction of common European energy data space.

00:06:14: This is the orange goal of the European Commission.

00:06:16: There is a set of five projects that are doing that in parallel.

00:06:19: And then there is one coordination support action Internet,

00:06:23: which is coordinated by FONU for Fit, where actually I'm involved

00:06:27: that is bringing those projects together.

00:06:29: The idea is that different projects like Omega X are testing different use cases

00:06:33: and identifying what is very important, the key building blocks,

00:06:37: because in order to bring the results of a project to European level,

00:06:42: we need to identify standard key building blocks to build a standard

00:06:46: architecture that can be replicated at European level.

00:06:49: So Omega X is exploring some of those use cases, particularly,

00:06:52: for example, looking at energy communities and then evaluating

00:06:57: what are those blocks and how the architecture can be built.

00:07:01: And particularly looking at technologies like data connectors

00:07:05: to facilitate the European standard.

00:07:07: That sounds kind of complex.

00:07:09: The complexity seems to be because there are many players involved.

00:07:12: You mentioned the use cases.

00:07:14: Can you give an example of a use case based on data spaces in Europe?

00:07:17: Well, example of use cases, I think there are some category of use cases

00:07:23: that are considered.

00:07:24: One is immobility charging in one of the most relevant.

00:07:27: Second one is related to flexibility,

00:07:31: some energy flexibility to support the grid operator,

00:07:35: transmission or distribution level.

00:07:38: Another one is related to energy efficient buildings

00:07:41: and the way to build solutions within the buildings, let's say.

00:07:47: And another element is TSO/DSO data exchange,

00:07:52: how to support the cooperation to build a unified infrastructure

00:07:56: among the different level of grid operators.

00:08:01: And the last one I would say that we are looking at at European level

00:08:05: is advanced parentive maintenance solution.

00:08:08: OK, it's like I mentioned before, it's a huge spectrum.

00:08:11: Let's focus a little bit on the immobility

00:08:14: because it seems that not that this use case is not only targeting the utility.

00:08:19: It seems that public and transportation market is also involved.

00:08:24: Is that right?

00:08:25: Yes, that's one example.

00:08:27: Going back to what I said at the beginning,

00:08:29: our data space are opening the data exchange beyond the single sector.

00:08:34: And immobility is probably one of the best examples in that direction

00:08:37: because when we talk about that use case,

00:08:40: we are talking about synergies between grid operator trying to keep

00:08:43: the grid stable and operating the best conditions

00:08:46: and mobility operator trying to achieve their mobility tasks

00:08:49: or customers trying to achieve their own personal mobility tasks.

00:08:53: So that's very complex ecosystems of players

00:08:58: that need to interact in the same data space.

00:09:00: And from your personal perspective, what is your favorite use case?

00:09:03: Is that the favorite use case on the most efficient one?

00:09:06: Wow.

00:09:08: Well, there are some are closer to my heart

00:09:11: because of the research I do, the flexibility is closer

00:09:14: because my main research activity are in grid automation.

00:09:20: So flexibility is very close to the target of grid.

00:09:23: OK, then let's switch to the German project

00:09:26: and then let's come to the flexibility afterwards.

00:09:29: We got a short overview of the energy data space.

00:09:32: Mr. Laskovsky, can I summarize that the energy data

00:09:36: X in Germany is the twin, the small brother or sister project of Omega X?

00:09:42: Or would that not fit?

00:09:43: Yes, yes, you can just say that it's more or less a twin.

00:09:46: It's a smaller project like Omega X.

00:09:50: Energy data X in Germany has two use cases.

00:09:54: One use cases is about flexibility, as just Mr.

00:09:57: Monti has just mentioned.

00:09:59: And we just see that we will get the data from E-mobility to to see

00:10:03: how we can support the grid operator, for example, in balancing his grid.

00:10:07: And the other one is using smart meter data

00:10:11: for also for the balancing operator to see how the grid can be served by by these

00:10:16: information. So we are more or less focusing on on on grid opportunities

00:10:23: to to serve and to support the grid operator in Germany.

00:10:26: But we have only two use cases, not more.

00:10:28: So it looks like they are very similar to that what Omega X is offering.

00:10:32: And as far as I know, there are many auto customers

00:10:36: or utilities companies involved in that project.

00:10:39: And we are we have the chance to go into details in another episode of this

00:10:43: podcast, which will be recorded during the during the fair.

00:10:46: Very interesting perspective.

00:10:47: I think it's a very huge effort now to focus on the data space on European

00:10:52: and the German side. But Mr.

00:10:53: Monti, let's let's then switch to the use case

00:10:55: flexibility, where you say you're closer to that case and flexibility of grid.

00:10:59: Can you give us an overview or some internal information about these use cases?

00:11:04: Yeah, flexibility is a very complex use case at the end.

00:11:08: And as was mentioned,

00:11:09: Przysztoł Laskowski is also crossing with the others.

00:11:12: And so you cannot completely separate, for example, the immobility from the flexibility.

00:11:17: The point is, given the volatility of renewable generation, we need to

00:11:22: exploit flexibility on the outside.

00:11:25: And that's where that's critical for the operation of the grid.

00:11:30: And this is a complex task because we have crossing the border to data

00:11:37: related to customers. So the end grid operator will have to request

00:11:40: look for flexibility that will be mostly provided by customers.

00:11:44: And that's where a really challenging data management problem comes

00:11:49: in terms of the auto sovereignty from the customer and privacy protections.

00:11:53: Well, at the same time, is an opportunity for the customers.

00:11:56: They have a way through flexibility service to increase their revenue

00:12:00: and better exploit installation, for example, of PV or battery.

00:12:04: They have done so trying to reduce their recuperation of investment

00:12:09: or their assets with services on top of the old fashioned

00:12:14: dump energy to the grid, which was profitable in the past, but not anymore.

00:12:18: That's flexibility regarding some roles dealing or acting with the net,

00:12:23: with the DSO or TSO. So would you say, but we still

00:12:26: say that the DSR and TSR got a central role in that game. I mean, from this perspective,

00:12:32: okay, flexibility is right, but the net, so the grid needs to be flexible as well. How will that

00:12:38: happen? Yeah, that's a link to one or the other use case I mentioned. That's why you can really

00:12:44: decouple those, because what we see already in Germany with the evolution of the Redis patch

00:12:51: concept from 2.0 and following 3.0, we need a tighter cooperation between DSO and TSOs, because

00:12:59: TSOs will see the problem of flexibility from the point of view of most of the frequency control,

00:13:03: but at the same time, the location of those flexibility sources will impact the operation of

00:13:10: DSOs and possible local congestion of the grid. But they are linked to the project as well,

00:13:14: so they're part of the project, right? Yeah, depending. I mean, there are several use cases

00:13:18: around Europe with a constellation of projects, including Omega X. In some of those, there are

00:13:24: use cases involving both TSO and TSO for sure. Then let's talk about the time frame. So what is

00:13:31: your guess? When will we have, when the data spaces will be ready to be used, when the use cases

00:13:37: will be on place? Well, the innovation actions of Project Like Omega X are more or less in the middle

00:13:44: of their development. So it means they should be ready in about one year and a half. And so

00:13:50: already at least the demonstration level. So we'll bring some good TRL, 6, 7, possibly 8.

00:13:59: What is even more interesting is just last week, the European Commission released a new call

00:14:04: on the Digital Europe program, which deals with taking the level of those projects like Omega X

00:14:13: and the whole family and bringing to real market level. So if we believe in this timeline,

00:14:20: it means the Commission will award this project during this year, during 2024, let's say towards

00:14:26: the end. And then the new project in the Digital Europe framework has the task within three years

00:14:33: to have an operational data space. That's the plan. So in principle, if I should short answer, say,

00:14:40: two to three years, we should have at least some elements of data space operating.

00:14:46: The audition can't see you smiling while you're saying that. Because so I got a perspective

00:14:53: on the utility market as well. And sometimes it seems that the second in utilities is a year in

00:15:00: real life. But it would be great. So it would help flexibility, it would help to increase renewable

00:15:06: energies in the market. So it's a method or a, let's say, building brick to reach the targets

00:15:13: we have at the energy vendor or in the European decarbonization. Is it right to summarize it like

00:15:18: that? Yeah, sure. Because we all know we have next big data in 2030, where we have the next target

00:15:24: to be achieving the energy energy vendor if you look in German, but from the overall, the

00:15:30: Green Deal of the European Commission, and without a way to speed up the process,

00:15:37: we won't make it. So data space are an opportunity through data, through digitalization,

00:15:44: to increase the flexibility of the system and then facilitate more renewable.

00:15:48: What will you say are the biggest challenges in the project right now?

00:15:52: You mentioned one directly. So we have to really get on board utilities in to do it

00:16:00: at the right level. One thing is when we do innovation actions, European project,

00:16:04: this is field test, there's some level of scales. But this jump now from innovation actions to

00:16:12: commercial industrial deployment will necessitate a commitment from utility that is at the different

00:16:21: level. This is one, the second one is the big elephant in the room all the time,

00:16:26: which is customer's involvement. We have to convince people that this is good.

00:16:32: It's something we'll bring advantage. But my perception is data space is a complex concept,

00:16:39: as we said already in this podcast several times, and go to the average guy on the streets and

00:16:44: explain what data space is and why that is convenient and it's not trivial. So bringing

00:16:51: people on board is going to be another big challenge. I'm curious on a personal level.

00:16:56: So you are in the market for a couple of years already. So really well known and

00:17:02: established person and you're guiding the department for research in Aachen as well.

00:17:07: So if you look and you're dealing with young people and you're dealing with old people like

00:17:11: myself. I would say that like this. Do you feel that the setting of the young people is different

00:17:20: of the people that are established in the market? So what is your perspective on the young people?

00:17:24: Is that something they are burning for? Yeah, I think the young people have a different approach.

00:17:28: They're fully digital. I have two kids and they're fully digital. You can see that everything they do,

00:17:35: they think, the way they interact is different. So we learn to cope with digital technologies.

00:17:42: They grew in the digital world. So they will be by mentality different.

00:17:46: So you mean some students of your institute are involved in this project as well, right?

00:17:52: So do you see them burning for that as an internal flame?

00:17:55: I think the people are right now in their 30s are still a transition generation.

00:17:59: So they're going in that direction but they're not like the people that are in the teenagers now

00:18:06: or in the 20s. So my PhD assistants are already close to 30 years old and so so. Generation younger

00:18:13: than us, of course more digital. But the generation like my children, they grew up digital in school.

00:18:20: So my child doesn't know what is a notebook. I only use iPad. That's the only way to do homeworks.

00:18:27: So that's a completely different setting of life that they have that before was not feasible.

00:18:34: Coming back to the Omega X and also the EDN data and also the other project,

00:18:39: do you think that they benefit from this involving young people?

00:18:43: Definitely, because they're open to it. They're willing. They're excited about digital technology.

00:18:49: They cannot imagine a life which is not deeply digital and even to an extreme.

00:18:55: But we should take that thing that normally as a parent, see as a negative.

00:19:00: Oh, you should stop looking at your phone and so on and use that opportunity

00:19:05: to because digitalization can bring great value to the society in terms of energy decarbonization.

00:19:12: So turning something that's always seen by parents as negative, including myself,

00:19:17: it's an advantage for the society that these people will be ready to understand the transition.

00:19:23: Okay, so we can talk about new generation. Mr. Laskofi, would you share this perspective?

00:19:28: I mean, you're also in contact with students on your lessons in university?

00:19:31: I've just made the same experience so that you're full right.

00:19:34: I think it's a question of people and a question of the older people,

00:19:39: that the young people, the students are still looking for more digitalization

00:19:43: and they are burning for this issue because they are just born with these smart pets inside.

00:19:50: I just fully agree with what you are saying. I see it especially with my children.

00:19:55: So they are working also making their homeworks with these smart pets and so on.

00:20:01: I think the new technology of digitalization also in the energy spectrum is still coming up

00:20:08: more and more with the new generation and not with the older ones. And in Germany, I would say

00:20:14: it's also a question of framework coming from the German Bundesnetzagentur.

00:20:19: And if all these cases are still set, the grid operators, they will change into this digital world.

00:20:27: Okay, then regarding Omega X or regarding the project or the research you are representing,

00:20:34: if you got a wish or three wishes, what would be your wish for the project?

00:20:38: So if you are free to tell what kind of base or circumstances should be created to reach the targets?

00:20:47: I think my wish would be a little bit technical, I would say, what I am experiencing because,

00:20:53: like I said, in front of you are coordinating all the projects, Omega X and the others.

00:20:56: One, the challenge is to come to an agreement on the architecture very quickly

00:21:03: and agree, that's what we call data space. There are a lot of opportunities and possibilities.

00:21:08: If I'm allowed, who needs to agree on that?

00:21:09: Well, first of all, the project themselves. So that's what we're trying to do, sitting together

00:21:14: and working and looking at different options. I agree in particular on some of the technology

00:21:19: solutions like the data connectors, talking to the International Data Space Association,

00:21:25: I had the impression there is a continuous burn of new connectors. This is creating a

00:21:31: Babylon of connectors. So instead of converging, we are diverging. So that's one point would be

00:21:37: really relevant if we converge. There are efforts in this direction. Another large project called

00:21:44: OneNet was developed by a connector based on IDSA technologies that is specifically for energy

00:21:51: and has a lot of...

00:21:52: DSA technology, perhaps the audience doesn't know what that means.

00:21:55: International Data Space Association, which is the international body that is overlooking the

00:22:00: standardization in this field. And it will be great to have an agreement on how to manage

00:22:10: energy data so that energy becomes part of this bigger system in a coherent way.

00:22:16: Yeah, I need also to smile a little bit because as I mentioned earlier, it's quite complex. So the

00:22:21: idea is perfect. And I think it's a building block for the energy even in Europe. But a lot of

00:22:30: work to do. So we need really an institute or department like your representing to coordinate

00:22:36: that because without coordination, I think that will never happen. So if I ask Mr Laskowski,

00:22:41: what would be your free wish you would like to have for the project?

00:22:45: Yes, at first I would say in Germany we need the, especially the framework for all these

00:22:51: data spaces. So that means the people who are delivering data should be able to deliver this

00:22:57: data because they should recognize that we have business models behind that. So they are able to

00:23:04: earn money with it. So that's the case, which should be developed in our project as well. Not

00:23:10: only the technical focus, more the business case side. And that's my wish that we get it at least

00:23:18: at the end of our project that we have a solution for this problem that everybody is able to see.

00:23:24: Yes, we are able to bring our data to the party and at least we get some money back to our companies

00:23:32: that we're able to earn money with this data. That's my wish. Okay, that's a good and

00:23:37: quite huge wish. I understand. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time and for the opportunity

00:23:46: to talk about the project. I hope you felt comfortable. Definitely. Definitely. So yeah,

00:23:52: let's see. And I would like to say good luck for the project, but that's not the right,

00:23:56: that's not the right expression. We are happy that we have this kind of project and we're

00:24:00: looking forward to get these data spaces implemented and take the advantages of these

00:24:05: data spaces. Of course, and as this is an expanding utilities podcast of Eviden, of course,

00:24:12: I need to say that Eviden is also happy to be involved in that project and taking a path of

00:24:17: it. But we will have the chance to talk about that in one of the episodes of the podcast.

00:24:22: Professor Dr. Monte, thank you very much. Professor Dr. Laskowski, thank you very much.

00:24:26: I mean, the people know that we say Thomas and Michael, but nevertheless, in that time.

00:24:31: I allowed myself to call by the whole title. Thank you very much.

00:24:39: My pleasure. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.

00:24:41: Yeah.

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